'59 Plymouth Forum

Dear Fellows,

at the moment I have some sever problems with my engine and I don’t intent to let it become another engine disaster as it was when I bought the Fury. So, asking for help I’d like to challenge the most experienced of you! We are talking about a stock 318 with Carter AFB 4bbl.

In the last weeks I rebuilt the distributor. There is everything new in it (cap, rotor, condenser, breaker) and even the shaft has new bearings. Wires and spark plugs are also new. Yet the Fury has severe misfire and backfire when speeding up.
At idling speed the engine runs not perfect, but almost smooth. When speeding up you can hear misfire coming from the mufflers and when you pull the throttle even more there comes backfire out of the carburetor.

How did I adjust the timing:
- The breaker has the right gab (0,017 in).
- On the pulley are 4 timing marks – two of them have a loop on top. Every mark shows 5 degrees.
- With the timing light, at idling speed and the vacuum advance disconnected, I adjusted the timing right to the mark between the marks with the loop and tight up the distributor hold down.

Next happens:
- As I already mentioned the engine runs almost smooth but not perfect.
- The vacuum advance still disconnected I speed up the engine. The timing mark goes back 10°, what shows that the centrifugal-advance weights move freely and right.
- Than I hook up the vacuum advance and the timing mark moves back about 30° to 40°. Misfire and backfire occurs.
- Back at idling speed with vacuum advance the engine runs not so smooth as it did without vacuum advance.

Basically I have three questions:
1. Did I adjust the timing right, if NOT
2. What is the exact procedure to adjust the timing?
3. What in your opinion could be the possible reason for misfire / backfire.
(To make it even more complicated - I have an weak idea that the misfire doesen't come from the distriburor)

Thanks for your help!!!

Stefan

hi Stefan,
I am out of practice with timing, since I don't do it very often., but I went thru similar problems with my 318 some years ago.

The first thing that comes to mind is these old V-8s will run at idle even if the timing is way off, so here are some things to consider:

1) You have taken the distributor out to install new bearings. How can you be sure you have re-installed it correctly? It could be 180 degrees out.

2) Correct basic setting for timing on Superpak is 10 degrees BEFORE top dead center..
There is ONE mark on the pulley which lines up with the appropriate mark on the timing indicator (a tab welded to the chaincase cover).

3) Are you sure you have your timing light clipped onto the #1 plugwire? Lots of folks get this wrong...but I cannot recall if, when you are leaning over the engine, if it is on the left or right. I think it is the one closest to the front of the engine, on your right, but don't take my word for it! (This one was a big problem for me!)

4) Check the spark plug wiring. You may have all the wires in the correct firing order (1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2), but you may have put them either one spot ahead or back in the distributor cap.

5) Lastly, it sounds like your vacuum advance works okay. Just be sure to disconnect AND PLUG UP the line while you set your timing at idle.
Let us know how it goes..
Roger

Thanks Roger,

I couldn’t find out the problem not yet. It&s#8217; not one of the possible mistakes you mentioned (I’m not a complete greenhorn ) but I have to confess it starts boring. Last weekend I readjusted all valves and I did it real carefully. Then I cleaned all spark plugs and it turned out better, but today I pulled the Fury out of the garage to check the misfire than suddenly it shout down – dead. My wife and my sons had to help me pushing it back into the garage. As I already mentioned it is not as easy as it looks. I’ll keep you posted.
Stefan

okay we have eliminated the obvious..now it gets challenging!
A complete shutdown indicates (to me) an electrical problem.
Long ago my car's ballast resistor quit and left me quite stranded. Try bypassing it.
ALso I suggest you replace your coil. Also, search for old, cracked ignition wiring. Wiggle wires to see if they feel broken internally. There could be a problem at the ignition switch..loose connectors, mice chew thru wires...all things are possible!

stefan,
You hinted that the problem may not be with the distributor..so what is the secret you are keeping?

Well Roger,

I didn’t hide a secret and let the rest of the bunch in search of a solution for my problem. Fact is, that I suspected the valve tappeds, but it turned out that all valves had the exact gab. I checked that on Sunday afternoon.
As I had a complete shutdown yesterday, you are absolutely right about an electrical problem and there are very few possibilities left.

- A broken cable is out of question because the harness is new. I did it only a couple years ago by my self and it work without the slightest sign of a problem.
- The ballast resistor and the coil are potential possibilities and I will shortcut it tonight as you suggested.
- The last of the possibilities is the condenser. If it doesn’t fire up with the ballast resistor shortcut and a new coil, than this is the last possibility. Do you agree?

Stefan
(If it won’t work, I have to do it the way John Wayne did it! )

Stefan,
Make a test, to prove to yourself that there is no spark, if nothing, put a jumper over the ballast resistor. If that brings spark, then consider geting a new coil. Condensers are cheap..maybe try another one? Think about what you have recently changed...heck, it used to run fine! Some component has quit on you..what could it be?

Roger
finally its Saturday and I found some time to work again …
- before I started to go over the ignition management I checked all the wiring and connectors – everything is hocked up as it should.
- Removed a spark plug and put it against ground – there is a spark but it appears very weak to me!
Ignition:
- I adjusted the distributor to TDC
- Then changed the ballast resistor – no result.
- Then changed ignition coil too – no result.
- MUST BE THE CONDENSER – there nothing more left.

Where do I get a condenser now? Who sells them?
(Living overseas sometimes is like living behind the moon )

Stefan

weak spark? maybe greasy connections..You should have a grounding strap connecting engine block to car firewall. I assume all connections INSIDE the distributor are clean and tight...

Replasing the big coil was a good idea..I have heard that sometimes it takes three or four tries to get a good coil. Can your auto parts place test it?
Where to buy condensers? I have never tried to buy tune-up parts over the Internet..I guess living in the USA does have its' benefits. I will think about it..if nothing else I could buy some for you and ship them to you.
roger

I went back to the beginning of this thread...the car ran okay until you rebuilt the distributor and put new electrical components on, right?

No, absolutely no greasy connections. Let me make a short feedback: The distributor was 100% disassembled and received new bearings and everything was done right. After I mounted the distributor the car run well, but: In the beginning I didn’t had any problems with the distributor itself but with the correct, or “Perfect Timing”.
1. I adjusted the timing on 10° BTC (with timing light)
2. I unhooked the vacuum advance – (car run well at idling speed and when speeding up the manual advance went to about 15° to 20° BTC and the engine ran just smooth and fine.
3. I hooked the vacuum advance – (car ran a little rough at idling and when speeding up it was really rough and without power.)
4. Tried to turn the Distributor to find a smooth point at idling speed – impossible. The vacuum advance went to about 40 – 45° BTC and that’s way too much for our cars.
5. 3 day – drove out of the garage, engine run a little rough because still cold – suddenly complete shutdown – mouse death.

Roger, as we have already tried everything and considering the purpose of the condenser (supporting the breakdown of the high voltage tension in the coil and avoid spark on the breaker surface) I’m pretty sure that the condenser is the messy part. Before I go on with this issue I’ll have to wait until I have a new condenser. A friend of mine in Germany who sold his Plymouth years will see If he still has one in his stock. Anyhow I’d like to appreciate your help and if he doesn’t have one I hope it’s ok if I come back to you! I’ll keep you posted!

Thanks
Stefan

Stefan,
Okay, I know I have chased up a few wrong alleys here. THanks for keeping me on track.
What is "mouse death"?
I will be happy to find and send you a few new condensers, if and when you need them.
Roger

No problem Roger. It also happened to me. If we could meet in a bar with a beer, we could probably talk for hours about our hobby.
Mouse death, or mouse dead is just an expression we use here when something happens like the shutdown of my Fury – just doesn’t want to work anymore.
If I need the condenser I’ll come back to you probably next week. Thanks again!!!

Besides: You did a hell of a job in your engine compartment (and not only there). I seriously would like to know how the difference between my 318 a you 361 feels. Thought also quite some time about buying the Savoy from Ilikeplymouth2 but I’m afraid that the block or the heads are cracked. Before I forget, does your distributor turn clockwise or counter clockwise?
Stefan

Its been so long ago that I had a 318 (more than 10 years), but it seems to me that the 361 has more "reserve" power. I had no complaints about the 318, however.
Now I will tell you that my 361 is not running "perfectly" either. I need to change the oil, then work on tuning and timing. I get two black soot? spots left on the pavement at first start. What do you think causes that? Bad rings? I hope an oil change will help. I think there is STP etc still in there.
I dont know which way the 361 distributor spins, I think it is opposite of the 318, but I will check. Meanwhile, reading the shop manual, it says that "a weak spring in the distributor will result in too much advance, and flutter at high speeds".

I asked Tom Fox about the 361 rotation, and he sent back official proof; the 361 distributor rotates counterclockwise, whereas the 318 rotates clockwise. This is what I believed, but could not prove.